MetaCast

Renata Proa: Hey guys, welcome to one more episode of Metacast, the podcast of the Meta-Analysis Academy.

Renata Proa: In this podcast, I share with you guys successful stories in healthcare, in research, in medicine,

Renata Proa: of folks who've done extraordinarily well in their careers so far.

Renata Proa: And today I have the honor of welcoming to the stage Renata Proa.

Renata Proa: Renata is from Sao Paulo, Brazil.

Renata Proa: She's doing a master's in public health at Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health.

Renata Proa: She has a PhD underway in Colombia.

Renata Proa: And she's going to share the details on how to build such a successful career, research-oriented career.

Renata Proa: And also going to talk to us about funding, about visa, and all these opportunities that have surrounded her career.

Renata Proa: But also some of them may apply to you as well.

Renata Proa: So Renata, thank you so much for joining.

Renata Proa: It's an honor to welcome you here to MetaGast.

Renata Proa: Thank you. It's my honor to be here. I'm very, very happy.

Renata Proa: Fantastic. Can you start off by some introduction, a little bit about your background, where you're originally from?

Renata Proa: Absolutely. It's very hard, actually, always to answer this question because I have such an unusual, unorthodox background.

Renata Proa: So it's just very hard to think how I'm going to sum this up and say a coherent story.

Renata Proa: But I'm originally from Brazil. I'm originally from Sao Paulo.

Renata Proa: I grew up actually in Santos de Andes Campos, which is an hour drive from Sao Paulo.

Renata Proa: And I studied, I went to university at the University of Sao Paulo,

Renata Proa: but I did a very also unorthodox undergrad program called the Molecular Sciences course,

Renata Proa: which is an initiative at the University of Sao Paulo that tries to create an interdisciplinary course for students,

Renata Proa: similar to what we have here because in Brazil you need to know exactly what you're going to study

Renata Proa: before you get into the university. I think most countries it is like this.

Renata Proa: And we have a very old-fashioned system which doesn't even have like an undergrad program in

Renata Proa: neuroscience. So they created this like 30 years ago that allows students to study math, computer

Renata Proa: computer science, biology, physics, and mathematics, and then just craft their own education that

Renata Proa: feels like a small master's degree.

Renata Proa: So I did this program, and then I studied a lot of mathematics in the second part in

Renata Proa: my last two years where I could choose what I was going to do.

Renata Proa: And I ended up getting like another degree in applied computational mathematics with

Renata Proa: a focus in control systems, so electrical engineering.

Renata Proa: molecular sciences and then mathematics yeah electrical engineering that was a lot it's kind

Renata Proa: of like the united states in that sense because a little bit in brazil in brazil you know like i i

Renata Proa: went into medical school at age 16 it's crazy you're like in high school and you don't know

Renata Proa: anything about life like i'm gonna be a doctor exactly there's no undergraduate in the u.s that

Renata Proa: you know you go through like undergraduate and there's advantages and disadvantages of both

Renata Proa: systems, of course, like everything in life. But what you did gives you an exposure to so many

Renata Proa: different areas. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it was just even like going back to get my degree in

Renata Proa: mathematics wasn't something that was common after doing the interdisciplinary program. And I received

Renata Proa: a lot of criticism from my professors. It's like, why are you wasting your time going for another

Renata Proa: degree? You already have your interdisciplinary degree. And it was really funny because it

Renata Proa: actually proved very useful because it's very just very useful to say that i'm a mathematician

Renata Proa: it gives me some background to say i'm a mathematician because molecular sciences

Renata Proa: gives the impression that i'm a biologist yeah and i'm i'm not um but anyway i i did this and then

Renata Proa: during this like two years um i had to to choose a research project and i was i was working with

Renata Proa: music at the time. That was my main focus. Is there anything you don't know? Do you know about

Renata Proa: astronomy? Several things. I don't know much about astronomy. But I was working with music and

Renata Proa: I was interested in neuroscience. My whole thing has always been mathematics. So I was really

Renata Proa: trying to combine those things. And one professor that I had that was a biochemistry professor,

Renata Proa: It was very important in my career.

Renata Proa: It supported me in very critical moments.

Renata Proa: She introduced me to a researcher at Hospital Albert Einstein that we were talking about

Renata Proa: and to study dystonia.

Renata Proa: A lot of people, especially in neuroscience, don't even know what dystonia is, but it's

Renata Proa: a neurological neurodegenerative disease that is also common in musicians.

Renata Proa: So I went to study dystonia and I had an Einstein and the project went really well.

Renata Proa: And from there, I was invited to work in a project for the public health system in Brazil to create a national image database with AI solutions for the public health system.

Renata Proa: That's incredible.

Renata Proa: Yeah, it was very, very, very nice.

Renata Proa: And I started off in my last year of undergrad of the crazy molecular sciences course.

Renata Proa: And it was very fun because I also, like later on, I got hired as a data scientist and I was responsible for taking care of the skin cancer algorithms that we were developing for the public health system in Brazil.

Renata Proa: And from there, I also had more of a strategic view for things on what we should do.

Renata Proa: So I ended up going more for a consultant position.

Renata Proa: I want to ask a question about that because a lot of our listeners are from Brazil.

Renata Proa: And it's pretty amazing that in our junior still stage of your career, you had such an opportunity, you know, in a leadership position, a national project.

Renata Proa: What do you think?

Renata Proa: And because we always hear this about in Brazil, like there's no opportunities for research.

Renata Proa: You know, it's so hard, you know.

Renata Proa: So it might be true that it is hard, but you've been very successful in that environment in Brazil.

Renata Proa: what do you credit that success to?

Renata Proa: Is it just like having the right mentors?

Renata Proa: Is it just like having all that phenomenal training

Renata Proa: and, you know, mathematics, you know, computational data science?

Renata Proa: You know, what is it that you credit the success to?

Renata Proa: That is, I love this question.

Renata Proa: I don't think there's a very, a single answer to that.

Renata Proa: I think it's a combination of things.

Renata Proa: I think for sure I have always been very ambitious and very passionate.

Renata Proa: And I think that that takes you to different places.

Renata Proa: But that's for sure not enough.

Renata Proa: I do think we have like very few opportunities.

Renata Proa: And I was very lucky to be to end up at Einstein, which is one of the places today where we can do research with a lot of like with structure in Brazil, with the distance structure in Brazil.

Renata Proa: So I was very lucky to be there.

Renata Proa: And I think one of the things that is very, I'd say, very particular about my story and that is not very common is that I like many things.

Renata Proa: So very often I go for the opportunity instead of just what you want to do, just because I want to do many things.

Renata Proa: And I was very bold and like I never thought about working with skin cancer.

Renata Proa: But I was like, actually, I could have chosen to work with neurodegenerative diseases in this project.

Renata Proa: But it seemed like where there was more impact, where there was a more cohesive team that I could learn more from was the skin cancer group.

Renata Proa: And I was like, I want to work with skin cancer.

Renata Proa: So I think, for example, probably this wouldn't have happened.

Renata Proa: I wouldn't have grown so much if I had chosen to work with neurodegenerative diseases in the same project.

Renata Proa: You mentioned that critical word, which is team, right?

Renata Proa: Having the right team around you, the right mentors, is always a key determinant in the successful stories that I hear of people that come on this podcast.

Renata Proa: And then you came to the United States.

Renata Proa: Can you walk us through that decision?

Renata Proa: Why did you decide to do that?

Renata Proa: Every decision is just also not...

Renata Proa: There are so many other things that influence that.

Renata Proa: for sure one of the big things for me to like that made me come to the United States was the pandemic

Renata Proa: because I had a lot of opportunities meanwhile like when I started doing this project I told

Renata Proa: you I was very passionate about neuroscience and about how to connect this with mathematics

Renata Proa: so I was doing I started like when I started at Einstein this this project for the public health

Renata Proa: system it was when I started working on my second bachelor's in mathematics and I started working

Renata Proa: with a professor that was a big name in theoretical neuroscience in Brazil that

Renata Proa: is the combination of neuroscience and mathematics as these people those

Renata Proa: mathematicians trying to do a mathematical theory for the brain and we

Renata Proa: don't have many people doing that but there there is a center called neuro mat

Renata Proa: at USP the University of Sao Paulo for that and I was working with the head of

Renata Proa: this Institute and I already had like my PhD in mathematics already on the way

Renata Proa: like this professor didn't even want me to finish my undergrad he was like you should start your

Renata Proa: phd that the second undergrad yeah you should start your phd already so i had all these things

Renata Proa: i had music like i had a lot of music things going on in brazil as well and then i probably

Renata Proa: even though i always wanted to explore i wouldn't have left the country at that moment probably just

Renata Proa: because i had so many good opportunities at the moment it sounds like and then the pandemic hit

Renata Proa: And I think it was a moment for everybody to think like, Ooh, what are we doing?

Renata Proa: And then was the moment that I started considering applying

Renata Proa: for a PhD abroad and I started like searching.

Renata Proa: And how does that work?

Renata Proa: Is that even possible?

Renata Proa: And you knew nothing.

Renata Proa: And I started I ended up in this

Renata Proa: mentorship program that was created by a Brazilian professor at Yale,

Renata Proa: which was fantastic for me.

Renata Proa: I had like a mentor that was incredibly supportive and for sure

Renata Proa: without his help, I wouldn't have gotten into the PhD program. Because this is something I think

Renata Proa: very interesting to talk about, because you can be very qualified, you can have a lot of

Renata Proa: an amazing CV, if you don't know how to write a good personal statement and put together

Renata Proa: your candidacy, it's just very hard. And we don't learn that in Brazil. We don't learn how to write

Renata Proa: a personal statement. I think it was the hardest thing for me was to actually write like two pages

Renata Proa: saying I am fantastic and you should hire me because of.

Renata Proa: It really took me a year.

Renata Proa: So yeah, I came to the US to do what I always thought

Renata Proa: was my big dream to do this mathematical theory of the brain.

Renata Proa: But meanwhile, when I was like applying

Renata Proa: was the time that I was hired at this project.

Renata Proa: And I really, really fell in love

Renata Proa: for the public health system with AI.

Renata Proa: And when I went to quit my job,

Renata Proa: my boss said, don't you want to continue working remotely?

Renata Proa: And that's how I am still working there.

Renata Proa: And just to bridge in what happened was that I moved here to start my PhD

Renata Proa: in computational neuroscience, and I continued working at Einstein,

Renata Proa: a small number of hours remotely.

Renata Proa: And I started, like, I went to Brazil and I participated in a datathon with Professor Lausale from MIT.

Renata Proa: And I got invited to work in his lab for the summer.

Renata Proa: That was my first year in a PhD.

Renata Proa: And it was just really good.

Renata Proa: I went to a few datathons with him and we got a few prizes.

Renata Proa: and I was just, I started thinking how much I have more impact working with healthcare than I had

Renata Proa: just like sitting in a room and trying to write by myself a theory for the brain that it is,

Renata Proa: it is, of course it is important, but I feel like I, a lot of my background and where I'm from,

Renata Proa: I really wanted to do something that would improve lives in my country.

Renata Proa: Well, I think it's a challenge because you have so many skills, you know, like where are you going

Renata Proa: to apply those. So going back to the PhD application, and then we'll talk about, you know,

Renata Proa: you decided to switch a little bit more into the healthcare field, but the decision to apply for

Renata Proa: the PhD itself, you mentioned that the pandemic influenced that. It was a sort of a trigger for

Renata Proa: you to pursue the, you know, the move to the U.S. You continue to work in Brazil, but can you walk

Renata Proa: us through what the actual application consists of? Because a lot of our listeners,

Renata Proa: are interested in a career in the U.S.

Renata Proa: And for a lot of them, it's through like medicine,

Renata Proa: being doctors and applying for residency,

Renata Proa: which is the way, the track that I did.

Renata Proa: But then there's this other avenue of applying for a PhD

Renata Proa: and maybe not a large proportion of them

Renata Proa: will apply for a PhD in mathematics,

Renata Proa: but I think still there's a lot to learn from your experience

Renata Proa: into applying for that, coming from a foreign country.

Renata Proa: What was that like?

Renata Proa: It was, as I said, I think it's,

Renata Proa: it's a little bit of a myth to think that it's very unlikely

Renata Proa: to actually crack into the system without having the support.

Renata Proa: I do know some people that have done it,

Renata Proa: but without having the support of someone who has done

Renata Proa: these kind of applications just by talent.

Renata Proa: You may have the most amazing CV,

Renata Proa: but it just takes a lot to actually put together this application.

Renata Proa: I think mostly the application is CV,

Renata Proa: And the personal statement where you're going to write those two pages saying, like, explaining what you've done, what do you want to do, and why you're capable of doing this.

Renata Proa: Who do you want to work with and why.

Renata Proa: And how those things connect.

Renata Proa: Yes.

Renata Proa: And telling the story is very hard.

Renata Proa: And then, of course, recommendation letters, which is also a big problem because not every Brazilian professor knows how to write a recommendation letter.

Renata Proa: Super agree.

Renata Proa: In the United States style.

Renata Proa: That is a lot about pumping up.

Renata Proa: So I think this is a process that is just very hard to go through.

Renata Proa: I think, at least for me, it was emotionally difficult.

Renata Proa: I think our culture as Brazilians is a lot about being humble.

Renata Proa: And you just need to, like, have someone writing a letter saying,

Renata Proa: this is the most amazing student I've ever had.

Renata Proa: Absolutely.

Renata Proa: And it's hard.

Renata Proa: It's hard.

Renata Proa: So I think this is the process.

Renata Proa: actually you have the personal statement and you have the recommendation letters

Renata Proa: they're going to do kind of the same thing but from an external perspective

Renata Proa: and everything needs to come together you got to be very smart on the people

Renata Proa: who are you're asking the letter for did you have to take any exams that is

Renata Proa: specific for application no I think like for even for science PhDs there is the

Renata Proa: some like graduate level tests that you got to take often that you used they used to be

Renata Proa: more common that's called it's the GRE I don't know if you need to do that for medicine

Renata Proa: I think some programs some post-graduates programs like master's and PhD will ask for that too

Renata Proa: I think today at least in my year people were not asking for that anymore I think some programs

Renata Proa: some fields still ask for it, but I didn't have to take it.

Renata Proa: And I'm very glad.

Renata Proa: But yeah, no, it was just more, more does the application CV experience for,

Renata Proa: of course, like having written like scientific papers is a big thing.

Renata Proa: I think it's just,

Renata Proa: you really need to write an application that is gonna like call attention,

Renata Proa: call the attention of the people who are evaluating this,

Renata Proa: not coming from one of the big universities or even from the United States.

Renata Proa: Unfortunately, it's just harder.

Renata Proa: You got to do a lot more to stand out.

Renata Proa: So, yeah, I think there is the possibility.

Renata Proa: I don't know if like you're thinking about how this career could be interesting for a medical doctor as well.

Renata Proa: But I know that you can, for example, do the PhD and after sometimes you have like a facilitated entry to medical school.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: Well, not even then.

Renata Proa: That's absolutely true.

Renata Proa: But the PhD itself is a career.

Renata Proa: Oh, yeah.

Renata Proa: You can get that and then you could, you know, work in that field.

Renata Proa: Yes.

Renata Proa: Whether it's in education or in industry, you could use the PhD.

Renata Proa: You know, a lot of our listeners are MDs and we're so tied to this career at the bedside and seeing being in clinic and being in the hospital.

Renata Proa: But for our audience, especially important to remind them, you do a PhD, that's a career in and of itself.

Renata Proa: Yeah, absolutely.

Renata Proa: I actually know quite a bunch of people who studied medicine more because of, I don't know, I wouldn't say pressure,

Renata Proa: but because they thought that's what they had to do

Renata Proa: if they wanted to do research.

Renata Proa: It's like what we were saying earlier.

Renata Proa: It's also because, especially where you're from,

Renata Proa: you're 15 years old, 16 years old,

Renata Proa: you decide to go to medical school.

Renata Proa: And for some people like myself, you really enjoy it

Renata Proa: and then other people don't

Renata Proa: and they see research as the career that they would like to have.

Renata Proa: It's not uncommon at all to have these people

Renata Proa: who go to medical school and then just become full-time researchers.

Renata Proa: Exactly.

Renata Proa: And then you wonder, did you actually need to go to medical school?

Renata Proa: I think for some people, of course, it helps.

Renata Proa: But sometimes you can just consider it a possibility of just being in a medical school.

Renata Proa: Yeah, especially in the United States, because then we're really talking about plenty of research opportunities, grants.

Renata Proa: Of course, it's a career that's very different from the clinical career in the sense that you always have to be thinking about funding and research and the next project and getting results and publishing.

Renata Proa: There's a lot of pressure in that sense.

Renata Proa: But it's a fantastic career, too.

Renata Proa: Can you talk to us a little bit about funding?

Renata Proa: Like about in a PhD, do you have to pay the university?

Renata Proa: Do they pay you?

Renata Proa: Is there a stipend?

Renata Proa: How much is it if you want to share that?

Renata Proa: That'd be great for our listeners.

Renata Proa: Yes.

Renata Proa: Yes.

Renata Proa: Absolutely.

Renata Proa: For the PhD, I don't know if it's, I think for sure all the STEM programs in all the

Renata Proa: like very good universities here in the US, you're going to be fully funded and receive

Renata Proa: a stipend.

Renata Proa: I think of course it varies from each program and from each university how much is your stipend but

Renata Proa: it's not going to change dramatically I do know some programs uh more in mathematics or like

Renata Proa: other fields that are not precisely stem like by stem sorry uh yeah I think I don't know if

Renata Proa: actually mathematics uh I think this is actually a um uh reflects of my perception of mathematics

Renata Proa: not being science and more like it's even a language,

Renata Proa: but it's not precisely science.

Renata Proa: I think I was thinking more science.

Renata Proa: I might be wrong.

Renata Proa: I might be using the wrong terms here.

Renata Proa: But for sure, anything in like biology,

Renata Proa: anything involving medicine, anything involving engineering,

Renata Proa: you're going to have, even physics,

Renata Proa: you're probably going to have like a PhD that is fully funded with a stipend.

Renata Proa: And the stipends, I would say they go between $40,000 a year and $55,000.

Renata Proa: Okay.

Renata Proa: But normally the university is going to give you some support.

Renata Proa: I mean, I think when we think about coming from Brazil, this is pretty good.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: Just to give people some perspective, let me know if you agree with this.

Renata Proa: But I think that that stipend that you mentioned is probably enough to pay the bills, not for a whole lot more.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: especially with increased cost of living in the US, Boston, New York.

Renata Proa: You're going to be able to barely get by with that,

Renata Proa: but it's enough for you to get that education.

Renata Proa: Yeah, exactly.

Renata Proa: I think when you think about PhD or even like,

Renata Proa: I don't know how it works in math school,

Renata Proa: but the problem is that it's a long time.

Renata Proa: But it also depends so much on the city you're living in.

Renata Proa: True.

Renata Proa: I do have some friends in smaller cities,

Renata Proa: and they receive that, and they're basically rich.

Renata Proa: But for example, I was doing my PhD in New York City.

Renata Proa: So that was a little bit more complicated, a little bit tighter.

Renata Proa: But I think also there are lots of things that the university helps you with

Renata Proa: that makes this more easy to live with.

Renata Proa: The help of living?

Renata Proa: They do help you with subsidized housing.

Renata Proa: Okay.

Renata Proa: They do help you.

Renata Proa: It's not cheap.

Renata Proa: But it helps.

Renata Proa: It would be impossible.

Renata Proa: I think it would be very, very hard if you didn't have that.

Renata Proa: That normally covers your bills as well.

Renata Proa: Even travel.

Renata Proa: I think that was one of the things that is very helpful.

Renata Proa: I think it also depends a lot on department.

Renata Proa: It depends on lots of things.

Renata Proa: But in the program that I am, very often they pay for my travel,

Renata Proa: like any conference that I wanted to go.

Renata Proa: They also paid for a computer.

Renata Proa: They gave me a computer.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: The perks.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: There's a lot that helps.

Renata Proa: And free food and several events.

Renata Proa: So the salary that Renata mentioned, about $40,000 to $50,000 a year,

Renata Proa: will surely vary from place to place, institution to institution.

Renata Proa: And it's a per year amount.

Renata Proa: Okay.

Renata Proa: Just to give you guys that perspective.

Renata Proa: Very good, Renata.

Renata Proa: And then I also wanted to ask you about the visa.

Renata Proa: Do most people who come from foreign countries should do a PhD or an MPH?

Renata Proa: do most of them come under a student visa, an F visa?

Renata Proa: I know a bunch of people that also come with a J visa,

Renata Proa: which I don't know how this gets decided.

Renata Proa: I have actually no idea.

Renata Proa: I'd say in a PhD, most people are F students.

Renata Proa: Can you tell us a little about the F visa,

Renata Proa: about like advantages, disadvantages?

Renata Proa: Like I know a lot about the J

Renata Proa: because that's how I trained in my residency.

Renata Proa: And there's advantages and things

Renata Proa: that are not so good about the J.

Renata Proa: What about the F?

Renata Proa: Does it allow you to work, for example?

Renata Proa: What I'm going to say, I'm not, I can say what is possible.

Renata Proa: I am not sure if I'm going to do the right comparison,

Renata Proa: but it doesn't allow us to really work.

Renata Proa: You need to, you can work up to 20 hours a week if the university,

Renata Proa: if your university approves it.

Renata Proa: And it's normally like, or if it's on campus,

Renata Proa: it doesn't have to be related to your field of study.

Renata Proa: Okay.

Renata Proa: But if the university approves it, it can be off campus.

Renata Proa: And considering that it's supporting, like the university is going to say,

Renata Proa: okay, this is aligned to what you do and this is helping you.

Renata Proa: So you can work up to 20 hours a week.

Renata Proa: Great.

Renata Proa: Yeah, that's a plus for sure.

Renata Proa: I think one of the differences is that maybe the F doesn't require you

Renata Proa: to return to your country for some time.

Renata Proa: I think the J does have some.

Renata Proa: True, your home requirement is the name of that rule.

Renata Proa: Yeah, no, that's great.

Renata Proa: My wife's under an F visa right now in law school,

Renata Proa: and she has got to do like a summer internship,

Renata Proa: a paid position.

Renata Proa: She actually got paid a lot more than a resident would.

Renata Proa: It's like amazing.

Renata Proa: I should have gone to law school.

Renata Proa: Yeah, you can definitely do internships,

Renata Proa: and you can work in tech, for example,

Renata Proa: and then you get paid a lot.

Renata Proa: If an F visa, that is a positive thing.

Renata Proa: And I think there's a rule also

Renata Proa: that once you're done with the training,

Renata Proa: Like there's some time in which you can work afterwards.

Renata Proa: Oh, yeah. OPT.

Renata Proa: OPT, exactly.

Renata Proa: Yes, exactly.

Renata Proa: I don't know precisely all the rules for that,

Renata Proa: but I think it's one year up to three years.

Renata Proa: You can work in that field that you just graduated in.

Renata Proa: Fantastic.

Renata Proa: And then let's talk more a little about that decision

Renata Proa: to transition into the MPH here in Boston.

Renata Proa: So you're right now at Harvard's T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

Renata Proa: Yes.

Renata Proa: What are you studying exactly?

Renata Proa: And why did you decide to transition from the PhD in mathematics to the MPH?

Renata Proa: Yeah, I was actually doing the PhD in computational slash theoretical neuroscience.

Renata Proa: But it is indeed like I was in this department that was just made up of physicists and mathematicians trying to do neuroscience.

Renata Proa: That's how I see it.

Renata Proa: Like rooms with a lot of equations written on the walls.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: That's my simple brain thinking math.

Renata Proa: Yes.

Renata Proa: It's not inaccurate.

Renata Proa: I'm also a mathematician.

Renata Proa: So, yes, as I was saying before, after I came here, I continued working at Einstein.

Renata Proa: And I just I think also when you go out of your country, I had never lived abroad before.

Renata Proa: And when you go out, you just have a very different perspective and you just realize how much you also care for your people.

Renata Proa: I think the sense of identity like arises a lot.

Renata Proa: I actually never spoke about it, but I think this is this is a point.

Renata Proa: I just always think that it was sort of a continuum that I was already falling in love very much with the impact that I felt like I had in public health.

Renata Proa: But I went back to Brazil and I said I participated in this data found that brought me here in the summer.

Renata Proa: I did some like summer research here at MIT last summer.

Renata Proa: And the professor told me I should like take more time in his lab.

Renata Proa: And he suggested I had applied to the MPH.

Renata Proa: And I was already in a moment feeling like my job and my PhD were going in very separate ways.

Renata Proa: And I really felt that I needed some time to think and to understand more public health.

Renata Proa: Because I am this mathematician that was developing algorithms for the public health system.

Renata Proa: but that did not really have any training on public health.

Renata Proa: And I think not even a lot of people there

Renata Proa: did not have particular,

Renata Proa: like training particularly in public health.

Renata Proa: And that was something that I was always curious

Renata Proa: because I remember developing this algorithm

Renata Proa: for screening skin cancer.

Renata Proa: And I remember this like very amazing doctor telling me,

Renata Proa: we want this algorithm that is more conservative

Renata Proa: in a sense of like we want to avoid, we don't want any false negatives.

Renata Proa: We don't want to miss like a melanoma, for example,

Renata Proa: but we want to reduce the false positives.

Renata Proa: And I was like, but why and how do I do this?

Renata Proa: So I was really, okay, how do I get these insights

Renata Proa: of why am I doing this algorithm for?

Renata Proa: I think like the whole thing about data science,

Renata Proa: It's not so much about training an algorithm or even the equations that are going on underneath your algorithm.

Renata Proa: It's a lot about, like, why am I doing this?

Renata Proa: And which data am I using?

Renata Proa: And to answer those questions, you really just need to understand what is the problem that you're trying to solve.

Renata Proa: And I felt like I was trying to solve a problem that I didn't really understand.

Renata Proa: And I felt like I really wanted to study public health.

Renata Proa: So those things came together in this decision of like,

Renata Proa: I want to apply for an MPH.

Renata Proa: And I knew that there was a Brazilian professor

Renata Proa: because my whole thing was that I wanted to work in Brazil.

Renata Proa: It wouldn't make any sense for me to just do an MPH

Renata Proa: focusing in the United States.

Renata Proa: So it was very important to me.

Renata Proa: I only applied to Harvard

Renata Proa: because I knew that there were people working in Brazil,

Renata Proa: focusing in Brazil in the department.

Renata Proa: And that's why actually I chose global health

Renata Proa: because I knew that there was Marcia Castro,

Renata Proa: which is a fantastic researcher.

Renata Proa: I think like she's a big name

Renata Proa: and everybody admires her because she's fantastic.

Renata Proa: So I was like, I want to go to that department

Renata Proa: and learn from her and from this environment.

Renata Proa: So yeah, that was a little bit of a decision.

Renata Proa: That's fantastic.

Renata Proa: And you enjoying it so far?

Renata Proa: I'm loving it.

Renata Proa: I'm loving it.

Renata Proa: I'm loving it way more than I thought.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: And also that the academic environment here,

Renata Proa: I wouldn't say,

Renata Proa: I think it's just very different from the sort of department that I was in.

Renata Proa: It's just so many other things,

Renata Proa: like even from a politics side of things,

Renata Proa: it's really the type of thing that I never learned.

Renata Proa: And it has been so,

Renata Proa: so interesting and transformative to learn these things.

Renata Proa: And to,

Renata Proa: And I think also that the type of people that I met in my program are people from different parts of the world that are so motivated to making big changes in the reality of their countries.

Renata Proa: They're very motivated to like making people's lives better.

Renata Proa: And I think this creates just like an incredible community.

Renata Proa: And I think this is one of the most precious things of my experience here so far is the people that I have met and that I continue to meet.

Renata Proa: every day here like like yourself uh you just meet fantastic people um so i think this this has been

Renata Proa: a big thing of my experience here it's a great it's a great place to be for sure no doubt about

Renata Proa: it let me ask you this you know someone has so much different diverse experiences like you and

Renata Proa: and knowledge in so many different areas i wonder if you have insight from being that person on the

Renata Proa: inside but like do you feel like that one area helps you to do better on the other like having

Renata Proa: Knowledge in mathematics helps you here,

Renata Proa: and having the knowledge in neuroscience helps you there.

Renata Proa: Yes, yes, for sure.

Renata Proa: I think the whole thing is in the keys in making these connections.

Renata Proa: I don't think they're always obvious.

Renata Proa: I think there are some things that come very naturally.

Renata Proa: I think sometimes I don't even realize that I have some advantage

Renata Proa: in something for having a different perspective.

Renata Proa: But for sure, you just always bring a fresh perspective

Renata Proa: and very new ideas to what you're doing,

Renata Proa: especially when you're interdisciplinary

Renata Proa: because you know things from different places.

Renata Proa: And I was hearing, I think it was in one of the talks

Renata Proa: that I had in a class at Harvard.

Renata Proa: I'm so sorry.

Renata Proa: I was hearing this in one of the talks

Renata Proa: that creativity is not about

Renata Proa: actually coming up with something completely new

Renata Proa: that you never heard.

Renata Proa: It's about applying something in a different context

Renata Proa: and reframing it.

Renata Proa: It helps when you have that many contacts.

Renata Proa: You know so many contacts.

Renata Proa: I think it was something in entrepreneurship talk

Renata Proa: that I was, and people were saying

Renata Proa: the most brilliant ideas were from people

Renata Proa: that just saw something in one context

Renata Proa: and they decided to, wait, what if I think of this thing or I do this

Renata Proa: in this completely different context?

Renata Proa: And it makes sense.

Renata Proa: It's something that people were not thinking.

Renata Proa: And it's just because you were in this different environment

Renata Proa: and you understood how this different environment worked

Renata Proa: and how people thought.

Renata Proa: I think this is something very interesting.

Renata Proa: You learn different ways of thinking.

Renata Proa: You learn a political way of thinking.

Renata Proa: You learn a very mathematical way of thinking.

Renata Proa: You learn a physicist way of thinking.

Renata Proa: There are so many differences and it's just very, I think it always gives you a very good understanding of people and how to bring people together to work together when you have different experiences and you're interdisciplinary.

Renata Proa: No doubt.

Renata Proa: I'm going to switch a little bit off topic now, off research, but I want to take your view on Boston versus New York.

Renata Proa: We're recording this in TD Garden, the home of Boston sports.

Renata Proa: And I'm not sure if you're a sports person, but there's a lot of rivalry between Boston and New York.

Renata Proa: A lot of people have different opinions between the two cities.

Renata Proa: I can tell you mine, but what's yours?

Renata Proa: I'm curious about yours.

Renata Proa: I was just actually talking about this right before entering here.

Renata Proa: When I came here in the summer, I said I was at MIT.

Renata Proa: I must say, I actually really didn't like the city.

Renata Proa: Really?

Renata Proa: Yeah.

Renata Proa: But I think it was because it was summer.

Renata Proa: It was very empty.

Renata Proa: And I wasn't really involved in the community.

Renata Proa: And so I came here really thinking, okay, it's one year.

Renata Proa: And I'm very motivated to what I'm studying with the program.

Renata Proa: And I'm going to manage it.

Renata Proa: I've been falling in love with the city

Renata Proa: every day and I'm already

Renata Proa: like sad and feeling

Renata Proa: this fear of missing out of like

Renata Proa: I'm gonna leave because I

Renata Proa: I'm really loving it I think

Renata Proa: it's just very different

Renata Proa: like coming here

Renata Proa: and being part of a community so

Renata Proa: I just really think just this is

Renata Proa: just to say that I think

Renata Proa: how much you like a city it's so

Renata Proa: much about the community

Renata Proa: than the city itself

Renata Proa: but having that said

Renata Proa: I love New York

Renata Proa: I was just going to say maybe I ought to give

Renata Proa: New York a second chance then because

Renata Proa: I've only been a couple of times and I did not

Renata Proa: like New York. I know a lot of people

Renata Proa: that really don't like New York

Renata Proa: or actually when I got here

Renata Proa: the guy on the end of the store

Renata Proa: back doors

Renata Proa: he was just like being friendly

Renata Proa: and starting to like talk

Renata Proa: and I was like where are you from? I was like from Brazil

Renata Proa: and what do you like

Renata Proa: are you liking Boston?

Renata Proa: I was like, yeah,

Renata Proa: I'm actually liking way more

Renata Proa: than I thought I would.

Renata Proa: And I said,

Renata Proa: I was in New York before

Renata Proa: and he was like,

Renata Proa: I hate New York.

Renata Proa: So I think it's just very personal.

Renata Proa: If you like busy cities

Renata Proa: and if you like this craziness,

Renata Proa: you're going to like New York.

Renata Proa: And I really like that.

Renata Proa: I think that the artistic part,

Renata Proa: like some of the things

Renata Proa: that you have artistically going on

Renata Proa: in New York is priceless.

Renata Proa: So for me,

Renata Proa: I think that's a big thing.

Renata Proa: but I'm really loving Boston

Renata Proa: I think it is really

Renata Proa: like it has a good balance

Renata Proa: of being a big city and a small city

Renata Proa: and the academic environment

Renata Proa: here is insane

Renata Proa: it's amazing

Renata Proa: I think they're different

Renata Proa: and I like change

Renata Proa: so I really like this idea of being here and there

Renata Proa: so yeah

Renata Proa: I love both

Renata Proa: but I think my personality

Renata Proa: works very well with New York

Renata Proa: nice to wrap up ranata is uh what's the next step in your career i mean there's so many great things

Renata Proa: going on you do they have the mph the phd which you're going to wrap up in the next few years

Renata Proa: there's brazil there's the u.s there's a global health now you could apply your skills many

Renata Proa: different places of the world what what are you thinking what's going on for your mom that's

Renata Proa: that's that's a great question i think there there's a lot a lot coming um i for sure i need

Renata Proa: to go back to my PhD program and finish it.

Renata Proa: And my next step is very much on how I bridge things.

Renata Proa: So I was telling you that I'm now working

Renata Proa: in this new project also for the public health system

Renata Proa: in Brazil with climate and population health,

Renata Proa: specifically focusing on equity

Renata Proa: and focusing on how this affects

Renata Proa: particularly black Brazilians.

Renata Proa: So I'm really thinking on how this connects

Renata Proa: to neuroscience and how can I bridge those things.

Renata Proa: And because I'm for sure continuing to work in this project and I'm looking for common

Renata Proa: venues.

Renata Proa: One of the things that I'm very interested in and that I've been studying a lot is mental

Renata Proa: health and how climate and environment affects mental health.

Renata Proa: I've been very interested in planetary health.

Renata Proa: That is also the connection of everything.

Renata Proa: I think, as I was saying, like my interdisciplinary background just helps me integrate things in a very unique way.

Renata Proa: So planetary health is all about that.

Renata Proa: It's really about understanding how everything is connected to get you to the health, to give you the health you have.

Renata Proa: So and it's something it's very interesting that we don't think, for example, animal health is just so connected to our health.

Renata Proa: like COVID, like came from bats.

Renata Proa: Like some of the biggest epidemics we had

Renata Proa: were viruses that came from animals, right?

Renata Proa: So how this all connects

Renata Proa: and how the environment now with climate change

Renata Proa: is going to affect all of this,

Renata Proa: it's all, for my mathematical mind,

Renata Proa: a very interesting modeling question.

Renata Proa: So that's probably the direction that I'm going.

Renata Proa: I'm also very interested in looking for ways to bridge the musical part.

Renata Proa: But that is very bold.

Renata Proa: I think there aren't many people doing this.

Renata Proa: And I've just really been thinking for sure it really plays a role in the way that I think

Renata Proa: and the way that I interact with people and the passion that I have for the things that I do.

Renata Proa: But I've been really looking for opportunities to try to bring art together.

Renata Proa: And I actually does have a lot to do with the mental health part because culture is such an important part of mental health.

Renata Proa: And art is also a very, very important way to actually assess emotions.

Renata Proa: And I think also talking about emotions is something that we should be doing more in science.

Renata Proa: I think we lose a lot when we pretend we do not have emotions and that we can actually be very objective.

Renata Proa: We want to be very objective, but at the point that we deny it and we don't talk about it,

Renata Proa: I think a lot of things do not go the way we want.

Renata Proa: True.

Renata Proa: We're so used to p-values.

Renata Proa: Yeah, exactly.

Renata Proa: Very good.

Renata Proa: So, yeah, I think there's a lot to explore and I'm very open-minded always.

Renata Proa: Well, Renata, it's a fantastic story and it's been great to meet you.

Renata Proa: and to hear your story.

Renata Proa: And thank you for sharing it

Renata Proa: with the audience here in Metacast.

Renata Proa: I look forward to seeing

Renata Proa: the next steps in your career.

Renata Proa: So many great things,

Renata Proa: so many good possibilities.

Renata Proa: I'm excited to see what comes next.

Renata Proa: I'm very excited too.

Renata Proa: And I'm so honored

Renata Proa: to be here today with you.

Renata Proa: Thank you so much for inviting me.

Renata Proa: And I'm so happy.

Renata Proa: And I hope sharing my experience

Renata Proa: can give anyone any inspiration

Renata Proa: or insights.

Renata Proa: For sure it will.

Renata Proa: So guys, this is Metacast,

Renata Proa: the podcast of the Meta-Analysis Academy.

Renata Proa: I had the honor to welcome here Renata Proa today,

Renata Proa: who shared her story from a successful career,

Renata Proa: multidisciplinary career in Brazil to coming to the U.S.

Renata Proa: for a Ph.D. in neuroscience, now an MPH here at Harvard.

Renata Proa: I forgot to say this disclaimer in the beginning,

Renata Proa: but what we discussed here is not affiliated with the institutions where we work.

Renata Proa: The opinions are our own.

Renata Proa: And I also take this opportunity to invite you to get to meet the Meta-Analysis Academy.

Renata Proa: me join our waitlist to learn how to publish systematic reviews and meta-analysis to advance

Renata Proa: your career. And also check out our other episodes of Metacast as well. Renata, thank you so much.

Renata Proa: Great having you. Thank you so much.

Renata Proa: ♪